3xP' CJ-Team | Increasing quality and standards for 2016

  • Hello everyone,


    now that we've kicked the inactive members, how about we start focusing on higher cj team standards.
    Quality over quantity :) I still vote for the strawpoll option where everyone votes anonymous for other
    members about the position they deserve in 3xP.
    This way we could have the cj team seem a bit more professional by having a smaller group with higher individual skills and standards.
    We've been discussing this with a couple of cj team members and everyone's agreed so far.
    I'm interested in what you guys think about this topic, since barely anyone talks about it actively. However i think it should be adressed.


    Best Regards,
    Pawz

  • I have to say I kinda agree with Pawz, but that would also mean that I could be 'kicked' away from the team which I don't obviously want. This is why I am still quite unsure about this poll. However, I have to say that when I think of a CJ-team, it's a relatively small group of people with high skill, not 40-50 guys who can finish some hard ways.

  • So tbh,


    i wouldnt like to kick people just because they arent that good as others, that would suck hard. But ofc there would be other way to do what u want pawz. F.e.: if we would split the member rank into 3-4 other ranks which will be given out depending on skill,
    BUT i dont know what benefit we have from doing that, the only thing which i see is that ppl have more energy to get better in cj, but this mostly helps the individual, not the team.


    If i would like to split the ranks, then i would split them depending on how much the people do for the team, in things of producing videos maps whatsoever, putting energy into it, managing events, having ideas AND CONVERT them and playing active because these things are really valueable for the team, and only this would increase the professionality of the team, not how good an individual member is.

  • Thanks for the fast replies,


    This IS a complex topic and it affects people directly,
    thats why mostly the majority wouldnt like a change in the system.
    I wouldn't like to kick people either. But some problems arise with this mindset.
    This behaviour reflects in the application system as well.


    At this point, members opinion and even votes do not have
    a significant relevance to the final decision.
    The current feedback shows you if the person is liked by the team,
    and thats basically it.
    It does not reveal anything about their skill, since lower skilled people
    are very much present in the team.
    And it does not reveal about what you mentioned Viruz.
    It is not possible to know if members will produce maps/videos/...


    Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that you're meaningless if you aren't
    very good at CJ or produce any CJ related content.
    But we all know, the skill of people is not something static.
    A perfect example for this is members who had a moderate skilllevel
    when they got accepted in to the team, and now they're at a much more advanced
    level of CJ.
    Now you might ask yourself, if this person would have gotten that far
    without being a member in the team. And that's a good question.
    And i will answer with yes.
    At this point, people do get alot of help by some cooperative members,
    like Noob, Funk, Hawk and all the above average active people.
    So this keeps them playing. Joining 3xP would be something special again.
    And it would provide a longterm goal for people in CJ.


    So what im saying here is that we are accepting people too fast.
    Or they are getting pushed to apply for the team too fast.
    Whatever you want to call it.
    I would like someone to apply if he's really familiar with CJ.


    How is this handled right now? I can only give you my perspective.
    Lets imagine theres a new player on the server which noone knows,
    if he can finish mp_descent or whatever map really in 1 run
    and if the majority doesn't know him, this person will be in the team
    in less than some weeks, given that he actually HAS
    an interest in joining it whatsoever.
    This is just fishing for above-average players and the team
    doesn't really benefit from it.
    It's more like the opposite, the team loses credibility.
    I know your argument, you want to create a group of cool people
    belonging together. Do you really think this is not possible without
    putting everyone in the team instantly ?


    So here's my main point.
    Viruz, you said producing videos,maps,managing events increases
    professionality rather than individual skill of members.
    This is not how it works to be honest.


    The individual members skill of all members taken together
    builds the teams professionality as a whole.
    And producing CJ related content is very much affected
    by the 'real' professionality.
    With more advanced (professional) members, maps AND videos
    will reach higher standards automatically.
    So why wouldn't we try to expand and evolve,
    rather than being stuck in the current system?


    So here you have my thoughts of all this.


    Best Regards,
    Pawz

  • I agree with Pawz and I think it is good that people finally start showing their opinions about the team and the whole stuff around it.
    I guess deleted User woke everyone up a bit with the story about the teams and such.


    ~ Bunneh


    [2017-07-25 17:17:37] Funk Attack: bunny called u weak for only giving 30min ban
    [2017-07-25 17:17:46] 3xP' AlterEgo: can you ss it

  • The reason I started playing on 3xP' so much was not due to the skill level of the members. The reason I started playing on the 3xP' CJ server was the people - the personalities.


    Back when I was a super noob, I could almost always get help from the active 3xP' players at the time, and that's why I played. Everyone was friendly and really helpful. The people were nice and helped others regularly. There was a good server atmosphere.
    That's what I liked about the server and it's why (in my opinion) the server is still so popular and active today. If the team was based solely on skill and not on personality I don't think the server would be nearly as populated as it is today (see the competitors and how their servers turned out). Although I completely see your point Pawz I don't think this would benefit the team/server. Sure, the players with the tag would be more skilled. However there would be less people who could help and they'd have less motivation to help also.


    I understand what you're asking and I can see why you're asking it but I don't think it would benefit the team or server. This is just my opinion, we just have different views on what the server should be like. I like that you brought this up as I do agree with some of your points.


    TLDR; I think people play for the atmosphere, not the skill level, changing the current structure won't benefit the server

    That's my view on the topic, would like to hear other views too.


    Regards,
    Noob

  • I think that the combination between pawz and viruz opinions would be perfect by creating an elite team but not just with skillz , also with how much people do for the team so players who have medium skillz and they are new like funk , me etc wont be kicked but idc if i got lower rank just for the good of the team and splitting the ranks is like u said will motivate a lot of people to improve their cj skillz at the same


    time they will try to do things for the team so here u got op team wich producing many things like maps videos or other things like skins and with good skillz so as i said the combination between both opinions would be perfect .

  • Thanks for your reply Noob,


    It seems that you're not really seeing my point.
    I'm not saying the team should be solely based on skill.
    I just didn't mention personality in my previous post,
    because i am taking a good friendly personality
    for granted.


    You can have a good personality and skill;
    they do not rule each other out.


    You're explaining why you liked the server
    and that's personality and helpful people.
    Why do you think more advanced people
    with a good personality will avoid helping
    others out? Should these really be in the team then?


    Your entire point is based on the excluded personality-aspect.
    But i don't exclude personality at all.


    About what you said X-Ploz, no i don't consider an elite team
    a good idea at all. This will maybe motivate people to get into
    the elite part of 3xP. But it is not possible to have too much
    people in it even if everyone would create videos and maps,
    since it would lose its meaning, like 3xP did somewhat.


    The longterm goal should be to get a member of 3xP.
    And that is only achieved if the team itself is the elite.
    Again i do not only look for skill, personality is taken for granted.
    Also it's not like people who would get removed are banned from the
    server and can't 'really' join at some later point.


    Best Regards,
    Pawz

  • wow.


    I must say, that this is one of the best argument based discussions I've ever seen on this board ;-)


    I can't say much about the cj team itself or help to improve the team, because I've basically no clue about cj environment except of hosting the server ;-), but in this discussion I saw some similarities to the clan itself and I think I can write my opinion to this.


    if i got lower rank just for the good of the team and splitting the ranks is like u said will motivate a lot of people to improve their cj skillz


    I don't know if splitting is a good thing. We had this in the clan some time ago we Member or Senior Member and it didn't worked. The goal was to motivate the people to be more active on teamspeak or on board. It changed nothing: active members (senior members) were still active on board and teamspeak and normal members were only active on server. The benefit of it was zero so we changed it back to normal members and invented the trusted system.
    What I want to say it, that it COULD motivate the players but it also could happen nothing. There is also a third option [no clue if this happens in cj] that a player improves his skill very slowly and he sees that all other cj members he started with get promoted to the next level. That could demotivate him.


    If i would like to split the ranks, then i would split them depending on how much the people do for the team, in things of producing videos maps whatsoever, putting energy into it, managing events, having ideas AND CONVERT them and playing active because these things are really valueable for the team, and only this would increase the professionality of the team, not how good an individual member is.


    This is in general the idea behind our clan. We accepted members who are friendly and valueable for the clan. Also some people who do very much special things for the clan [developing the mods, creating the logos, or creating the yt videos] got a higher rank.
    I strongly agree with viruz because I think that it doesn't matter how skilled a member is. Also I think that it would be hard to split the groups depending how valueable the member is. Every member is valuable in his own way [some people create maps, some just help other people on the server]. And I think that's whats makes a good team: All players know that they are important for the team and everyone helps the team in his own way.

  • Mirko has a great point. if we were to have a ranking system or member ranked system that person could see everyone get promoted and get discouraged and get demotivated, which would be a big risk to take.


    Also, a point that want to make that I'm pretty sure relates to this topic is before i joined this clan i wasn't motivated hardly at all to play cj and i really wasn't that good so i played csgo(still the best game ever) and when i decided to join 3xP i wasn't even good enough to complete maps like mp_descent_v2, mp_blue2, mp_sunset(inter), but joining this clan was a big inspiration to me for making content on YouTube and being a better person and more motivation to be a member because of the community giving me all the motivation and i remember being able to fuck those maps up in days... credit goes to Hawk, Viruz, deleted User, and other great members for teaching me great things.

  • Ill note dont some of my oppinion


    So at first i need to say that i hardly agree with mirko, splitting the ranks wont be good for the team.



    Quote

    Do you really think this is not possible without
    putting everyone in the team instantly ?


    No i think it is possible without putting everyone in the team instantly, not like we handled it the most time.
    This is why we changed the application system.
    At the moment it takes at least 1 Month after people wrote their apply, to get in the team, And for each time you fail the test it takes another Month additionaly.
    I think its by far to early to judge about it as we just have one guy applied since the changes, which is Weezie.


    Quote

    At this point, members opinion and even votes do not have
    a significant relevance to the final decision.
    The current feedback shows you if the person is liked by the team,
    and thats basically it.


    This is true,
    but dont think that because of that we will continue to accept every one.
    To justify f.e why we accepted Weezie (5 No Votes 7 Yes Votes) is because we know him for before the CJ Team times, and talked alot with him.
    That is why i think that i can say that he is worthy to join the team, and this were ofcorse also discussed with the other cj leaders.




    Quote

    Now you might ask yourself, if this person would have gotten that far
    without being a member in the team. And that's a good question.
    And i will answer with yes.


    You will answer it with yes, but i will answer that with no. Why?
    Because i know it from myself, from the moment on where we started the team (i were intershitnoob) my skill significantly increased,
    because you have more contanct with the people when you are in the same team and its more likley that you will get help from a guy if hes in your crew.
    Also i were always in teamspeak with better people from the team, which wouldnt have been the case if there would be no team.


    Also same for my youtube skill, these days i can edit relativly good, and i got all the motivation to learn it, doing botw over the past year and alot of other videos,
    from the Team i where in, representing the group in the internet, and not just me as an individual.


    Being in the team is what really gives you motivation to improve your skills in cj and the things around it, not the willing to get into a team.




    To this i just can say no.
    You are talking about the average skill of the members, which is a part of the professionality but a very small part.


    My definition of Professionality in the CJ Team is for example that we are able to reach new people, which is only able through aciveing good
    public occurs, through youtube and social media f.e. . Also managing the server and guarantee that people have a playground that will be repaired when its broken.
    Having responsible people for each section, which magaging their section without the need of other guys forcing them to do so.
    Or being able to manage releases, f.e. boucebuilder, With well made walktrhoughs, tutorials and without f.e script bugs in the map which lead in rare server crashes or so.
    And ofcourse its also the ability of members to actually play codjumper, to help new people, provide testers and stuff like this.


    The Professionality of a team like ours, is defined by the people and what work they do in the team. A team full of good players who are doing nothing but providing demos, may have professional skill, but no real professionalty in more important sections like f.e. getting know in the scene or giving people a platform to get each other known.




    Quote

    With more advanced (professional) members, maps AND videos
    will reach higher standards automatically.


    No. Just because you get good in one thing, doesnt mean that you get good in other things.


    The jumps in the videos are harder, but this does not affect the skill of the editor to create a valueable media product. Look cj videos that are out there. The most of the Videos with very hard jumps are poorly made without any concept or professionality in video producing.
    Also Maps arent getting better just because you get skill in cj, i remind you f.e mp_galaxy, was made by deleted User in his times where he wasnt that good in cj, but it reached a very high standart, because of a very good concept.
    or mp_planets_v2 which is a really nice map made by a guy who isnt even able to beat hard ways :P

  • Answer in spoiler, so you don't have to scroll for 1 hour.


  • i didnt understand your request wrong as u already told someone else before the same thing, especially i think alot of the guys who answered understood your request very well to focus more on skill and not only on skill.


    Quote


    Now where in this analogy can you disagree with the statement
    that a higher level of the core skill, will ultimatively
    lead to an increase of the following content creating quality?


    In the way you think about it yes, if u compare guyA making a cj video while being inter skill will lead in a worse product, then if the same guyA would make a video while being high skilled in cj.
    But in a realistic environment if guyA would make video while being inter skill, he would do a video of the high skilled guyB and guyC.


    And now if guyA, guyB and guyC would like to join the team and we would increase the focus on skill, we would be more likely to accept guyB and guyC rather then guyA.
    But acually guyA is the most worthy guy for the team, he is the one which brings the team a benefit, and who puts the most work into the team. So i want that we are more likely to accept guyA.


    In this situation the skill of guyA dont change his worthyness for the team, because his skill is irrelevant as long as he fullfits the low needed skill standards which we have.
    And additinaly i cant imagine any situation where this is diffrent, the skill dont matters.
    Because we dont get a benefit or a disadvantage from the individual skill of a player,
    beside when hes under the actual low skill requirement.




    U basicly already said it: "or have some other person be good at it" this is the point,
    so if we focus on higher skill, it would be not possible or way harder for f.e. Bushido , to join the team.
    But i would like to accept him in the team due his energy he puts in to CJ through maps.


    This is a negative aspect of focusing more on skill.



    Quote

    Having someone finish mp_bouncer_training, even supported
    by the best editing will not result in a good public appearance.


    That is true, but as we know people mostly will edit demos from other guys.
    So if there would be a guy who activly produces cj videos, but sucks in cj, i would like to accept him as hes still more worthy then a skilled guy who produces nothing.




    And yes i know some skill is required in cj to get more into cj video making maps making or to simply play with the other from the team.
    This is why we have a skill requirement which requires you to be a little bit skilled (medium skill).


    So you would like to increase the skill needed to join the CJ Team,


    so im asking myself "What benefit is there for the Team if a member is f.e. hard+ insteat of hard- skill?"
    Im answering it myself with "There is no benefit for the Team." This doesnt change anything for the team. The only case would be that he maybe can test harder maps for mappers
    and providing higher skilled jumps in demos or would increase the reputation of 3xP' as a high skill team more, which we never focused on and never will focuson.
    But im not willing to say no to a good applicant that isnt hard+ or what, just to get these little benefits.


    It works the same the other way around when im asking myself "What cons are there for the Team if a member is f.e inter+ instead of hard+ skill?"
    Also here i dont really find a bad thing for the team. Because what changes for the team, he cant test harder maps but for that he could test inter ways better then a hard+ player. he couldnt provide good demos. he couldnt help that much people.
    But if hes a nice guy and got friends in the team, plays active or even is doing a map or videos n stuff like this, i would be likely to accept him.



    In this train of thought you can see how irrelevant the skill of an individual is, for being a member of the team from my point of view.
    He has to be inter/inter+ or more, thats the only thing which gives the team real benefits.
    And if i dont see benefits, or even see negative points (which i do), i dont want to change it.




    So all in all:


    if hes over the actual low skill requirement which we have,
    I think its pointless and unimportant and dont change the worth of an individual for the team, if he is high skilled or low skilled,

  • I understand your logic of choosing who is
    "more worthy" for the team.
    But then again there are members who are bad
    and neither do videos or maps.
    So where do these members fit in your
    category-system?
    I've been talking about these members from the start.


    It's hard to draw a line when someone is rated
    a bad player but there's for sure an amount of 5-10
    bad players in 3xP, who additionally
    don't create any content either.
    And i haven't seen them progress over the months.
    So there goes that.


    Pawz

  • Idk which members you're talking about being bad, anyway, I don't see myself as good and I don't improve that fast. What I do?
    I'm very active on servers and help alot of players, probably more than the pros you're talking about does.


    I know almost all the players in server, even those who struggles in easy and I often put alot of effort trying to help them improve.
    When I'm playing it's more important for me that everyone is having a good time than I make a hard bounce.


    I want the server to have a good atmosphere where alot of nice guys joking and have fun :)


    So.. I think the "bad" players are good for keeping a good atmosphere on servers since they're being active, talking and helping anyone who needs help, I rarely see a "pro" helping out noobs in easy.